ScopesAndAmmo.com Store Logo

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 27

Thread: New Old Project - .25 Disco Revisited

  1. #11
    Moderator rsterne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Wed Dec 7 2011
    Location
    Coalmont, BC
    Posts
    1,266
    I took some time today to experiment with the hammer travel / valve lift settings to see what effect it had on shot strings and efficiency.... I chose a power level that is at the upper end of what would be practical with JSB Kings, around 1000 fps average.... I started with a fill pressure of about 2000 psi and 4 turns in on the hammer travel and found I got a decent 7 shot string with the RVA set at 7 turns out filling to 1900 psi.... I then turned the hammer travel out 1 turn, the RVA out another half turn, and got another 7 shot string starting from 1950 psi.... One more turn in on the hammer travel same RVA setting, and I got a good string starting from 2200 psi, but only 6 shots.... I had to use the higher fill pressure to overcome the limited lift imposed by that setting, however.... In each case, I played with the RVA and fill pressure to get the best (ie flattest) bell-curve.... Here are the results....



    In practical terms, there is little difference between the first two strings, and in fact they had the same efficiency, 1.08 FPE.CI.... At the greatest hammer travel, however (the black line), the valve can only open a maximum of 0.084" before the hammer hits the bumper on the back of the valve.... First of all, you can see that the string is shorter and steeper.... Instead of getting 7 shots within a 4% ES like in the first two strings, I only got 6 shots within a 6% ES.... However, the efficiency was quite a bit better, at 1.33 FPE/CI.... more power from less air used, but a shorter string.... Some of that extra efficiency, however, could be from the higher pressure required to overcome the severely limited lift at that setting.... I therefore wanted to try more settings in between 2-3 turns in on the hammer travel to explore what was happening.... I did several more strings, at 2.25, 2.5, and 2.75 turns in on the hammer travel, and played around with the RVA and fill pressure (in all cases between 1900-2000 psi) to optimize the shot strings at the same power levels.... Here are those results....



    Now a clear trend is emerging.... as the maximum lift on the valve decreases, the shot string shortens and drops off very quickly after the peak.... The black line (0.095" max lift) shows that very clearly.... The red line (0.116" max lift) shows the flattest shot string, and the blue line (0.105" max lift) is in between, with the velocity just starting to turn down on shot 7.... All three of these settings produced better efficiency (1.14-1.16 FPE/CI) than the "unlimited lift" curves from the first chart, but not as good as the "severely limited" curve.... My conclusion was that once the hammer contacts the bumper (which seems to occur at about 0.105" of lift at roughly 1500 psi) the velocity then drops off on subsequent shots because the valve can no longer open further.... That very contact limits the amount of air wasted on those shots, increasing the efficiency.... but when carried too far causes the velocity to drop like a stone, shortening the shot string by a full shot (a big percentage out of 7 shots)....

    I've never used the bstaley O-ring buffer mod, but from what I understand, these results would appear to contradict what he finds.... I can only assume that the energy absorbing qualities of the bumper is the reason.... The 70 durometer O-rings he usually uses may act a lot less like a lift "limiter" than a lift "cushioner", but that's just a guess.... In any case, the best shot strings seem to be as the bumper JUST starts to come into play.... When the hammer just starts to touch it on the last shot or two it seems to be increasing the efficiency slightly without truncating the shot string.... The roughly 6-7% increase in efficiency is small but measureable.... However, I'm not so sure that at these power levels it is worth the added complication of having the extra adjustment to worry about....

    From previous experience, and from using Lloyd's spreadsheet to provide an estimate of how the efficiency is changing over the shot string.... I'm guessing that for the best setting the first shot is about 1.5 FPE/CI, and the last shot is about 0.8 FPE/CI.... That would mean that running the gun on a regulator at 2000 psi should return about 1.5 FPE/CI at 55 FPE, the practical limit for these pellets.... At some point I will tether it to a small tank to confirm that hypothesis....

    Bob
    Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
    Airsonal: Too many to count!

  2. #12
    Moderator rsterne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Wed Dec 7 2011
    Location
    Coalmont, BC
    Posts
    1,266
    I tethered the gun directly to my SCUBA tank today (no regulator), filled it to 2000 psi and bled the line and shot a few strings.... Then I did the same with the tank valve shut off but the line not bled, so that it's volume becomes part of the reservoir.... However, by doing that I can use the (larger, more accurate) gauge on the fill clamp to monitor the pressure during the shot string.... It appears than an 8 shot string gets stretched to 9 shots with the added volume of the hose, fill clamp, and fittings.... so that means the total volume is 9.26 CI instead of 8.23 (the reservoir by itself is 135 cc).... Here are the results of the 9 shot string, broken into three segments of 3 shots each....

    Shots 1-3: average velocity 998 fps, 180 psi used.... 169 FPE from 115 CI of air.... 1.47 FPE/CI
    Shots 4-6: average velocity 1022 fps, 230 psi used.... 177 FPE from 147 CI of air.... 1.20 FPE/CI
    Shots 7-9: average velocity 998 fps, 270 psi used.... 169 FPE from 172 CI of air.... 0.99 FPE/CI
    Shots 1-9: average velocity 1006 fps, 680 psi used.... 514 FPE from 434 CI of air.... 1.18 FPE/CI average

    Using the gun tethered to a 2000 psi regulator, I can therefore expect to shoot at ~56 FPE at an efficiency of about 1.5 FPE/CI with the 25.4 gr JSB Kings.... That is very good efficiency with a relatively light bullet at those power levels.... so I'm very pleased.... I'm looking forward to trying it with heavier bullets....

    Bob
    Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
    Airsonal: Too many to count!

  3. #13
    Moderator rsterne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Wed Dec 7 2011
    Location
    Coalmont, BC
    Posts
    1,266
    I was looking over my data on this gun today, and noticed I hadn't correleated the performance against the pressure.... Here is a graph showing what happens with two pellet weights....



    You can certainly see the big boost in FPE by using heavier pellets.... Also of note is the flattening of the velocity curve once Mach 1 is exceeded (with the light pellets).... These graphs are based on the highest velocities obtained with each pellet at each pressure....

    Bob
    Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
    Airsonal: Too many to count!

  4. #14
    Senior Member SeanMP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Thu Dec 22 2011
    Location
    Just south of "Out There"
    Posts
    911
    Nice looking performance graph. I seem to remember that Lloyd was bustin his butt to break the 100fpe mark just a month or two ago....

    And there you go blowing through it one attempt
    Sean

  5. #15
    Moderator rsterne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Wed Dec 7 2011
    Location
    Coalmont, BC
    Posts
    1,266
    Well he showed the way.... *grin*.... some of his ideas, dusted off some of my own stuff, and put them all together.... I'm pretty pleased to have done it with 42 gr. EunJins, though.... I have some Mr. Hollowpoint pellets coming (50, 53, 58 gr.).... According to my twist calculations, his longer ones won't stabilze (or are really marginal) in the LW barrel.... Makes me wonder about using a TJs .25 APC liner with the 14" twist.... OR, go whole hog, get a 25-35 liner in .257 cal with a 1 in 10" twist, and go for the REALLY big slugs....

    While I'm thinking about it.... does anyone here have a mold for 50ish gr. bullets in 0.250-0.251" and/or a sizing die for 0.250" ???

    Bob
    Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
    Airsonal: Too many to count!

  6. #16
    Senior Member SeanMP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Thu Dec 22 2011
    Location
    Just south of "Out There"
    Posts
    911
    Hmmm I like the idea of the 14" twist. Perfect for something about 3 calibers in length.

    That 10" twist though. Thats a whopping big boolit. Almost 4 calibers and over 100gr.
    Sean

  7. #17
    Moderator rsterne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Wed Dec 7 2011
    Location
    Coalmont, BC
    Posts
    1,266
    My Mr. Hollowpoint pellets came in yesterday, and I got a chance to do some testing with them today.... I ordered 100 each of the 50 gr., 53 gr., and 58 gr. in 0.250", and he also sent 10 of a new 53 gr. "4-ring" which I didn't test yet.... I initially set the gun up with the adjustments maxed out and filled to 3000 psi for each shot.... All testing was done tethered to my SCUBA tank but with the tank valve shut off during the shot.... However, I didn't bleed the fill clamp and hose, so it becomes part of the volume of the air reservoir, making the total about 150 cc instead of 135 cc....

    The 50 gr. pellets were right on weight, the 53 gr. weighed in at 54.4 gr., and the 58 gr. were 58.8 gr.... The new 53 gr. 4-ring were 52.0 gr.... I miked them, and all the original ones were a few ten-thousandths under 0.250 ", the new 4-rings were right on.... All have his classic large hollowpoint design.... While I was doing the Chrony testing I shot each weight at it's own target.... Note these groups spanned 1600 - 3000 psi, and over a 200 fps range of velocity, and there were at least 15 shots in each group (more with the 58 gr.), and although the range is only 20 feet (in my garage), I did determine that the 54.4 gr. pellets weren't very good in my barrel.... out of every 3 shots, only two were usually touching.... The 50 gr. and 58 gr. put all the pellets into decent groups, and 3 consecutive shots were always one small ragged hole.... The small squares on the targets are 0.10".... Proper accuracy testing will have to wait until our two feet of snow is gone in the spring....



    Now for the nuts and bolts.... I tested all three pellets at 3000 psi, 2400, 2000, and 1600 psi, 3 shots with each weight, and recorded the average velocity.... In each case, the gun was set up for the maximum velocity with the 58 gr. at each pressure (hence why I used more of them).... That will mean that the hammer strike was strong enough to max. the velocity with the lighter pellets as well.... Here are the results for heaviest, 58.8 gr. Hollowpoints, plotted on the same graph I used for the 25.4 gr JSB Kings and the 42.4 gr. EunJins....



    You can see that at 3000 psi with the 58.8 gr pellets, I got 962 fps, which is 121 FPE, 839 fps (105 FPE) at 2400 psi, 839 fps (92 FPE) at 2000, and 760 fps (75 FPE) at 1600 psi.... The 50 gr. pellets shot 814 fps at 1600 psi and 1002 fps at 3000 psi.... The 54.4 gr. went 788 and 980 fps respectively, and they were still over 100 FPE at 2400 psi.... Heavy pellets sure do up the FPE levels.... I then did some testing using 2400 psi with the 54.4 gr. pellets, and varied the hammer spring preload to see how the velocity and efficiency responded.... Here are those results....



    You can see the typical velocity plateau, after which adding more hammer strike gains no further velocity.... I then set the gun up for a shot string starting at 2200 psi, and then another starting at 3000 psi, although by this time I could only get a fill to 2960.... In both cases I got 6 shots with a 5% ES, although without the extra volume of the hose, 5 shots within a 4% ES would be the ultimate outcome....



    At 2960 psi, the average velocity was 891 fps (96 FPE) ending at 1860, for an efficiency of 0.83 FPE/CI.... At 2200 psi, the average was 801 fps (79 FPE) ending at 1420 psi, which works out to 0.96 FPE/CI.... Using a pressure in between to achieve a power level in the mid-80 FPE range would probably get the that to over 1.0 FPE/CI....

    So for now, this project has reached it's conclusion.... I managed to get 121 FPE at 3000 psi and 105 FPE at 2400 with the 58.8 gr. pellets, and I'm pretty pleased with that.... What started out giving 11 shots at 45 FPE starting at 2100 psi is now doing 6 shots at ~80 FPE from 2200.... which is a huge increase in power at exactly the same efficiency.... I'm sure there is more efficiency to be found in there, but I'd really like to try some heavier bullets, and they would be too long to stabilize in the LW barrel.... Therefore, I think I'm going to order a 28" long .257 cal liner from TJs and start casting my own bullets in 65-85 gr. weights, which will work in its 14" twist.... I'll need to bore out the valve and ports some more, and the goal is to exceed 130 FPE with the 65 gr. bullets.... The only thing I haven't decided is whether to use the new barrel on this Disco, or put it on my Hayabusa.... When I make the parts to convert it into a .224 bench rest rifle, optimizing it for the 41.5 gr. bullets, it would be close to ideal for the 65 gr. .257 cal bullets as well.... So many projects, so little time....

    Bob
    Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
    Airsonal: Too many to count!

  8. #18
    Moderator rsterne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Wed Dec 7 2011
    Location
    Coalmont, BC
    Posts
    1,266
    I tried a lttle experiment today.... I pulled the gun apart and drilled the throat of the valve out from 0.250" to 0.266" (17/64").... I knew this would make it more difficult to knock open the valve, and I also knew that I was marginal on hammer strike previously at 3000 psi.... However, since I never plan to run the gun at 3000 psi, I thought it was worth a try....

    Well, the maximum velocity dropped about 40 fps, and now peaks at about 2650 psi.... That pressure drop is almost exactly the percentage difference in the areas of the valve seats.... It shows how marginal I was on hammer strike previously, in fact the gun probably would have made slightly more power if I had a heavier hammer spring.... Now that is definitely the case.... The maximum power at 2400, 2000, and 1600 psi is exactly the same, but it requires 1 more turn on the hammer spring preload to get that.... So far, no advantage, right?....

    Well, not quite.... The efficiency has increased significantly.... For the same power, I'm opening a bigger hole for a shorter period of time.... The best string I shot today was 6 shots within 5% ES starting at 2400 psi.... With the 54.4 gr. pellets, I got an average of 844 fps (86 FPE) with an ending pressure of 1560 psi.... That works out to 0.97 FPE/CI.... 9% more power than I got yesterday on only 10 psi more per shot.... I'm very pleased with those results....

    As I've seen previously, as you make the gun breathe better, the shot string peaks higher, but becomes more curved.... If the gun is tethered or regulated, this doesn't matter.... but in practical terms I'll lose a shot to stay within the 4% ES I tune for once I remove the gun from the fill hose and lose that extra bit of volume.... Still, 5 shots at 86 FPE from a Disco is pretty amazing....

    Bob
    Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
    Airsonal: Too many to count!

  9. #19
    Senior Member remtom1200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Tue Jan 3 2012
    Posts
    323
    What diameter is your barrel port and or transfer port at this point?
    For every mile of road, there's two miles of ditch

  10. #20
    Senior Member SeanMP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Thu Dec 22 2011
    Location
    Just south of "Out There"
    Posts
    911
    Excellent stuff Bob

    What are your feelings on the MrHollowpoints at this point?....other than "hits like a truck" ;~)

    What size spring are you running right now?
    Sean

+ Reply to Thread

Similar Threads

  1. Another QB78 Project
    By remtom1200 in forum Co2 and Pre-Charged Pneumatic (PCP) guns.
    Replies: 96
    Last Post: Feb 16 2013, 03:28 AM
  2. B3 Type 81 project
    By paddyfritz in forum Airgun Picture Gallery
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: Jan 15 2013, 07:52 AM
  3. New project...
    By jgoodz420 in forum Customization and Craftsmanship
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: Aug 02 2012, 10:49 AM
  4. AR2079A HPA project...
    By AirGunEric in forum Co2 and Pre-Charged Pneumatic (PCP) guns.
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: Jul 10 2012, 05:58 PM
  5. Crosman MK I HPA Project
    By sholo in forum Co2 and Pre-Charged Pneumatic (PCP) guns.
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: Mar 31 2012, 09:05 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts