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Thread: FPE vs Caliber and Port Sizes

  1. #1
    Moderator rsterne's Avatar
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    FPE vs Caliber and Port Sizes

    For a while now I've been pondering how the potential FPE an airgun can develop relates to the bore size (caliber) and to the port size between the valve and the barrel at the smallest point.... Everyone knows that as you restrict the transfer port the potential FPE of the gun decreases, but I haven't seen much hard data on how that relationship works.... I've done a few experiments myself, and have found that once the FPE begins to drop (which occurs when the TP is the point of restriction) that the relationship between FPE and diameter is pretty linear.... I began to explore this from a mathematical point of view by going back to basics and looking at the force at the base of the pellet for various pressures and calibers.... I calculated the bore area (caliber/2 squared times Pi) and then multplied by the pressure to obtain that force and then plotted it on the graph below....



    As I pondered that graph, I began to wonder how that force relates to the potential FPE of the airgun.... I reasoned that since FPE is the energy in foot pounds (ft.lb) and that means the force over a distance, if I set the distance that force is applied as 1 foot, the force ends up being the potential FPE at 100% efficiency.... Here is a graph of that for the common airgun calibers....



    I ran this data past Lloyd Sikes, who checked it with his spreadsheet and confirmed that if all the efficiency factors were set to 100% and a 12" barrel used, the results were consistent with my data, so I knew I was on the right track.... This doesn't mean that you can achieve this with a 12" barrel, however.... There would have to be an infinite air reservoir, no wasted volume between the valve and pellet, no resistance due to friction (air or pellet), and a 100% transfer of energy from the air to the kinetic energy of the pellet.... None of those factors are possible, but there is a way to overcome those losses by using a longer barrel and increasing the distance the force acts through....

    I've done enough development on PCPs now to realize that you want to close the valve before the pellet reaches halfway down the barrel, otherwise efficiency suffers.... If you have a 24" barrel, and close the valve at 12", now you can achieve results pretty close to those on the graph.... As an example, my .257 Hayabusa, with wide open porting, achieved 160 FPE at 3000 psi.... almost right on the blue line on the graph.... using a 28" barrel.... I have numerous other examples of high performance PCPs that show results similar to those predicted above by using the 12" EFFECTIVE distance for the force.... What I am saying is that the expansion of the air in the extra barrel length makes up for the multitude of losses that occur in even a very efficient PCP....

    In the next post, I'll explore the effect of a transfer port that restricts the flow below the full bore size, which is what the graphs in this post are about....

    Bob
    Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
    Airsonal: Too many to count!

  2. #2
    Moderator rsterne's Avatar
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    One of the things I discovered while playing around with the data to create the above graphs, was that if you based the force on a constant port diameter instead of the caliber, the FPE ended up being independant of caliber.... An example would be if you used a 3/16" port for a .25 cal PCP and also for a .30 cal.... and assumed that the port limited the force on the pellet to the same value in both cases (eg. 83 lbs. at 3000 psi).... the prediction was that the FPE of both calibers would be the same.... We know this not to be the case, the larger caliber tends to produce a higher FPE, even breathing through the same ports as the smaller one.... I needed a way to combine the effect of the port size AND the caliber in the calculations.... The idea I came up with was to calculate the EFFECTIVE area used in the force calculation by using the product of the port diameter (at the smallest point) and the bore size (caliber) as follows:

    Effective Area = Port Diameter x Caliber / 4 x PI
    Force = Effective Area x Pressure
    Potential FPE = Force x 1 Foot

    I tried this out, and when I graphed the results for a given caliber, the FPE was proportional to the port diameter, just like the trends I had seen in my (limited) testing.... Encouraged, I created a graph for each caliber, of potential FPE vs. (minimum) port size.... Here are the results....









    The port sizes are in 1/64ths of an inch increments up to .35 cal, starting from 1/16".... Above that, the increments are 1/32", with the minimum port diamter increasing gradually.... In every case, the maximum port size is the closest drill size to the full caliber diameter.... I'm not aware of any .22 cal or smaller airguns that use 4500 psi for a fill pressure, so the graphs don't show that.... The 850 psi lines shown are for HPA, it is unlikely that CO2 could achieve the FPE levels shown because of the increased density drag of the heavier CO2.... This is not because of the pressure, but rather a decrease in efficiency due to friction, IMO....

    NOTE: I am not claiming that the above graphs are accurate, or achievable.... I am offering them as a point of discussion to further develop the possibility of being able to predict how big the ports need to be in a PCP to develop a given FPE with a given pressure.... I am particularly interested, currently, in how increasing the caliber effects the FPE without any other changes to the gun, other than an adjustment in the hammer strike to allow more dwell to allow the same valve closure point in the larger volume barrel.... The first practical test will hopefully be in my next project, a .30 cal Disco Double which will also have a .25 cal barrel option.... The plan is to use a 3/16" (0.188") port straight through, and at 2000 psi that predicts 74 FPE in .25 cal and 88 FPE in .30 cal.... I am going to set those as my (rather lofty) goals for this project and see what happens....

    Bob
    Last edited by rsterne; Apr 19 2013 at 01:04 PM.
    Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
    Airsonal: Too many to count!

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    Senior Member Doc Sharptail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsterne View Post
    I am particularly interested, currently, in how increasing the caliber effects the FPE without any other changes to the gun, other than an adjustment in the hammer strike to allow more dwell to allow the same valve closure point in the larger volume barrel.... The first practical test will hopefully be in my next project, a .30 cal Disco Double which will also have a .25 cal barrel option.... The plan is to use a 3/16" (0.188") port straight through, and at 2000 psi that predicts 74 FPE in .25 cal and 88 FPE in .30 cal.... I am going to set those as my (rather lofty) goals for this project and see what happens....

    Bob
    I was just thinking about double tubes last night. Lookin forward to seeing an in-depth report on this. Looks to be a neat way to get a modest volume increase. Particularly interested in how you do in .25, without adding a bottle to the gun...

    Regards,

    Doc Sharptail
    "Ain't No Half Way"

    -S.R.V.

  4. #4
    Moderator rsterne's Avatar
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    I built a Disco Double in 9mm, and the shot count did, in fact, double over a stock Disco.... I got 8 shots at 117 FPE with 78 gr. pellets and 9 shots at 127 FPE with 132 gr. cast bullets, both within a 5% ES from 3000 psi down to 2000 for the pellets and 2850 down to 1750 for the cast bullets.... With the single tube I was getting only 4 shots....

    Bob
    Dominion Marksman Silver Shield - 5890 x 6000 in 1976, and downhill ever since!
    Airsonal: Too many to count!

  5. #5
    Senior Member Doc Sharptail's Avatar
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    http://www.canadianairguns.com/showt...ht=double+tube

    Here's a refresher. The search button here is the standard php stuff- and doesn't accept generalizations-
    e.g: double tube vs double tubes :P Good thing search by author is on it.

    I'm beginning to get an understanding of the relationship between pellet weight and pressure (however miniscule), and it's a plus for my purposes...

    Regards,

    Doc Sharptail
    "Ain't No Half Way"

    -S.R.V.

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